Talk:Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search


Requested move 15 June 2019[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Consensus has formed to move to article to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sam Sailor 19:18, 27 June 2019 (UTC)



Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railway stationChhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus railway station – The name of the railway station has been changed by including Maharaj Sai199610 (talk) 04:36, 13 June 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. DannyS712 (talk) 20:13, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Sam Sailor 17:05, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Already moved once and moved back. Ping User:Matthew hk. Sam Sailor 17:05, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

"Withdrawn" Sai199610 (talk) 06:51, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Oppose may be Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus is better. The previous bold move, claiming MoS (the VP one or the subset Indian railway stations?), seem not documented or not existence. No need to artificially add "railway station" suffix to the common name of the terminal station. Matthew hk (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose No need for the grandiose honorific "Maharaj." The British built it. It was called "Victoria Terminus," or VT for short, for 100 years. Victoria was the reigning monarch and Empress of India during its construction. Note, it was simply "Victoria Terminus," not "Victoria Maharani/Empress Terminus," a simple no-frills name. The provincial government in India has renamed it after Shivaji, a Maratha chieftain of the 17th century, who had nothing to do with this late 19th century wonder, now a UNESCO World Heritage Site. They have their own compulsions. But there is no reason to add the grandiose "Maharaj" ("Chatrapati" is already an honorific.) I say, keep it simple, Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus. Most people still call it VT. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:14, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Can you provide secondary sources as evidences which show it calling VT. I have provided evidences which show its common name to be CSMT. Similarly can you provide some?
Here are some more:
    • Mumbai CSMT station gets amazing makeover! See pics.

https://www.timesnownews.com/business-economy/industry/article/mumbai-csmt-station-gets-amazing-makeover-see-pics/440510

    • Mumbai: CSMT passengers may soon be able to hire prepaid taxis from P D’Mello Road

https://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/mumbai-csmt-passengers-may-soon-be-able-to-hire-prepaid-taxis-from-p-dmello-road Sai199610 (talk) 14:47, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

A Google binary search for "Mumbai" "CSMT station" but not "VT station" gives 25,000 websites. However, the search for "Mumbai" "VT station" but not "CSMT station" gives 59,500 websites.
As for books, a similar binary search for CSMT but not VT yields 47 book titles; however, the same for VT but not CSMT yields, 190 book titles.
As for news, a search for VT -CSMT yields 1560 news stories, the one for CSMT -VT yields 1670 news stories So, they are about the same. But note also that a similar binary search for "CST station" -yields 4,310 news stories So, my original point about not using the honorific "Maharaj," is in line with usage in newspapers. But as a "Terminus," which means the end of a railway line doesn't usually take "station" after it, (see OED, "Either end of a railway or other transport route; the station or the town or city at such a place; the place at which a transport route, pipeline, etc." Examples: 1877 Tramways Intelligence 17 The lines of the company have their London termini at Westminster Bridge-road, Blackfriars-road. 1936 J. B. Priestley They walk in City iv. 85 Taking a bus as far as the edge of the moors, walking over to some place where he could get tea, then walking back to the terminus again.), the best title for this page remains, Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:11, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • Comment The new proposal was similar to a bold move to Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus in December 2016. With that user (Deepak HK) was stale, it was impossible to tell that user was the actual sockmaster of the recent (April) bold move from common name that causing that user (Haratunder) was blocked. The December 2016 bold move was reverted by Balablitz, with edit summary: "per WP:COMMONNAME".
So, the concern would be 1: the common name (NOT official name) of the station. 2: Should we follow the MoS set up by the Village Pump. For the latter, since i am not sure how many namesake of Chhatrapati Shivaji as station, but may be "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus " is grammatical correct (for example Grand Central Terminal) as an article title, but not sure it is the most commonly known name or not. Currently the nominator did not provide any external source especially newspaper. Matthew hk (talk) 19:15, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
Since the station has been renamed more than two years ago, the change is seen everywhere and it has also become a common way to use CSMT. Since, there is not too much difference (just a Maharaj in between) it is not too much difficult to use CSMT instead of CST. Even the Airport (Chhatrapati Shivaji International Airport) was renamed by adding Maharaj and the article in WP is also moved with the new name long ago.Sai199610 (talk) 08:45, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
And also Maharaj was added to the name of the station to honour the Maratha warrior Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
Sai199610 (talk) 08:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
  • CSMT bridge collapse case: Mumbai police files second chargesheet
https://www.timesnownews.com/mirror-now/in-focus/article/csmt-bridge-collapse-case-mumbai-police-files-second-chargesheet/428358
  • CSMT commuters to get prepaid taxi stand near P D’Mello Road
https://m.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-news/csmt-commuters-to-get-prepaid-taxi-stand-near-p-d-mello-road/story-pZ4vvdwpo2amhUS2LbqCSK.html
CSMT is commonly used in all the news paper articles (as you mentioned) as well as in all the other sources.
So I think we should go with this move. And there is no one else taking part in this discussion (I don't know why) and hence I feel this is an uncontroversial move.
Ping User: Matthew hk
Sai199610 (talk) 14:25, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
It is not an uncontroversial move. Please wait for user with page mover rights, admin or other uninvolved user to close the discussion. If Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus (or the CSMT) is the common name, then it is no point to have the suffix "railway station" or even "station". Matthew hk (talk) 06:53, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Yes "railway station" is necessary. Giving an Example-
Lokmanya Tilak Terminus railway station it's common name is LTT and yet the title contains "railway station" in Wikipedia. It is used to depict that the Terminus is a railway station and not anything else.
Sai199610 (talk) 09:14, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Bomb hoax triggers panic at LTT
https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/mumbai/bomb-hoax-triggers-panic-at-ltt/article27528196.ece
  • Step out of LTT on to this pathetic road
https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/mumbai-speaks/step-out-of-ltt-on-to-this-pathetic-road/articleshow/69640615.cms
These are the newspaper articles that prove the common name of Lokmanya Tilak Terminus railway station to be "LTT".
Sai199610 (talk) 09:19, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

The "railway station" was an artificial suffix that set up by a MOS in WP:VP, there is no point to add that suffix if the common name was just for example LTT and nothing as namesake. Some railway station article in wikipedia had the suffix "station" only. Matthew hk (talk) 06:35, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Then there are many more such railway stations having the suffix.
Eg: Mumbai Central, Bandra Terminus, Chennai Central, Mangalore Central having the same suffix.Sai199610 (talk) 08:00, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Mumbai Central or foo Central is a generic word for railway station or shopping mall. E.g. CentralWorld, Victoria Park Central in Victoria Park, WA, so the suffix is needed, while Terminus seem specific enough. Also, not many railway station had "railway station" suffix such as Tai Wo station, you need to consider the MoS of the VP. Since your source tell me the common name was Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus then why it need the suffix? Grand Central Terminal did not have that suffix (or "Terminal" is a suffix already) as a terminal station. Matthew hk (talk) 11:10, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Then let me ask you that why Lokmanya Tilak Terminus, Bandra Terminus, Shri Chhatrapati Shahu Maharaj Terminus railway station have the suffix? I don't think there is any need to compare Grand Central Terminal to the stations in India. Then why does Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus has the suffix when it was earlier known to be just CST?
So when all the other Terminus have railway station as a suffix let it be a common way to keep the titles of railway stations of Indian Railways.Sai199610 (talk) 12:41, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST. There is so many relic from the brutal mass move by enforcing the MoS set up by the VP, which probably overlook individual article. For this specific article, it is full of bold move and revert:
  • 2016-07-03: Balablitz moved page Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railway station over redirect: per proper naming convention
  • 2016-09-09 Wishva de Silva moved page Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railway station to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus over redirect
  • 2016-10-21 Balablitz moved page Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railway station over redirect: per naming convention for railway stations
  • 2016-12-09 Deepak HK (already mentioned above)
  • 2016-12-20 Balablitz (already mentioned above)
Also, it is absolute train wreck on finding the actual VP discussion thread. I only able to located Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 138#RfC: Russian metro line article titles and Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 139#RfC on naming of Chinese railway line articles. Matthew hk (talk) 13:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Ok. I Support moving the title to Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus. But then I feel that together with this station all the above mentioned terminals should also be moved removing the suffix "railway station".Sai199610 (talk) 13:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Your logic is right when "Terminus" is already mentioned there is no point of the suffix. But I thought it is a conventional way in Wikipedia to name a railway station in India.Sai199610 (talk) 13:51, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

I thought WP:VP had a MoS for railway station in general, but unfortunately i can't located it. But underneath it would be MOS:CAPS, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENCY. Naming convention a kind of MoS, was something like Hong Kong national football team (X national football team), as Hong Kong is a member of FIFA but not a sovereign state, which the convention was artificially enforced in wikipedia. For small cap "railway station" (small cap instead of upper cap) it was enforced as a suffix for railway station in general but some article, as i stated, have "station" suffix only. Terminus, it had no way to refer to other kind of Terminus , as the bus terminus were refer as Bus Terminus in Indian newspaper [1]. Matthew hk (talk) 14:30, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

I have no issues as I mentioned to keep it either with or without railway station. The point is CSMT. But if this terminus is renamed without the suffix then I feel the above mentioned terminals should also be renamed. There should be a common way to name all these teminals.Sai199610 (talk) 14:42, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

For Lokmanya Tilak Terminus, should be, as Lokmanya Tilak Terminus or LTT are common names according to your article. It was bold move by Balablitz back to 2016 without linking the actual MoS he claimed. There was yet another bold move for that article in 2013 by Skinsmoke , but quickly reverted. While Bandra Terminus way too much bold move from 2013 which i lost track. Bandra Terminus need a RM instead. Matthew hk (talk) 14:49, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
As I have shown above, with reference, to Google, Google Books and Google News, the CSMT is not the most commonly used name. As a matter of fact it is simply Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus (and many people still call it VT, short for Victoria Terminus). The 17th century Maratha chieftain to honor whom the provincial government in that part of India changed to name of the terminus is simply called Shivaji on Wikipedia. The most commonly used name for this terminus is Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:44, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Yup, the "railway station" suffix was boldly added due to WP:consistency rationale probably, but overridden WP:COMMONNAME . So, for the merit of discussion, it should use the historical name Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus or the current name Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus as the most commonly known name among the common names. Matthew hk (talk) 15:57, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Actually we need more users to participate in the discussion.Sai199610 (talk) 16:29, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

@Sai199610: It is clear what the common name is in the sources. Not only does it not have "train station," but it also does not have "Maharaj." It is Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus by a decisive margin—overall by 1,240,000 Google results to 269,000 results; and in newspapers searches by 29,100 results to 6,080 results. That is a clear majority. Wikipedia is beholden only to the sources, not to the opinions, or preferences, of individual editors. What will greater participation do? This is an open and shut case. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:13, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Google results may be old or new. There is no point in looking into results that are older(Before renaming) as those will show only the old names as common names. We need to consider the ones after that. According to me the common names are the ones used currently (largely) and not the ones that were used.Sai199610 (talk) 17:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

@Sai199610: During the past year, "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus" has 149 newspaper stories, not counting reprinting of syndicated stories, whereas, with "Maharaj" has 88 newspaper stories. The former name clearly has a decisive majority in recent searches, although there is no Wikipedia requirement for the searches to be that recent. See WP:RECENTISM. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:15, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler:164 newspaper articles for Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj terminus and 139 articles for Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus in past year category hiding duplicates. 134 articles for Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus and 176 articles for Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus under the same category and settings as above. Hence, CSMT has a majority. Sai199610 (talk) 07:10, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
The Google choice "previous year" is imprecise; you have to choose the date. More completely:
When "sorted by date," from June 25, 2018, and hiding duplicates, there are 140 results for "Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus" and 133 results for "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj terminus".
When sorted by date, from August 31, 2018, there are 146 results, for "Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus", and there are: 122 results for "Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj terminus Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:35, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
UNESCO World Heritage List on which this property is listed, is calling it, "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus (formerly Victoria Terminus)". That pretty much clinches it, @Sai199610:. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:21, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes you can see that I have "sorted by date" too. I do not know why there are so much differences between the numbers provided by me and you even under the same settings. It also shows that neither you are ready to accept my numbers nor I am ready to accept your numbers and this is the reason why I am calling more users for active participation. Let a third user comment.Sai199610 (talk) 12:35, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

You have to type in the actual date by choosing "custom," not "previous year." The Google canned choices are imprecise. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:59, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
They are not the same settings. Again, the Google "previous year" setting is imprecise, you have to choose custom and choose a date there. And please do not change your post after someone has replied to it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:12, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
You seriously think a third editor is going to flip this bogus page move in your favor? Wikipedia in any case does not require the search to be restricted to news outlets. A general search " 'Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus' 2018 OR 2019" gives 574,000 search results whereas a search " 'Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj terminus' 2018 OR 2019" gives 234,000 search results. There is no comparison. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:18, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
No, I do not expect that to happen. But what is the problem in waiting?Sai199610 (talk) 13:22, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
A Google news search for " 'Chhatrapati Shivaji terminus" 2018 OR 2019" gives, 26,700 returns. the same for " 'Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj terminus' 2018 OR 2019" gives 5,660 results. In other words, if you choose the years in the main search engine, you get clearer results. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:27, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
Shivaji's own page does not have any honorific in the title. "Shivaji" is his common name, not the bells and whistles. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:32, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
I do know that. But when the government has named it as per the request of most political parties (and might be as per the interest of the people of Maharashtra), I can't do anything as it is already renamed.Sai199610 (talk) 13:53, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't think you do understand the symbolic meaning of that: government pronouncements, howsoever well-intentioned, or claiming the mantle of public opinion, don't mean a thing for Wikipedia naming policy. Otherwise, as I've already stated a few times, Ganges (on Wikipedia) would be called Ganga and Allahabad, Prayagraj; Naples would be called Napoli and Florence, Firenze. Seriously, I don't know why you are wasting people's time with a non-issue. It is not about to happen, when Ganges is still Ganges. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:16, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment[edit]

Want to let everyone, that the current name is Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus according to gazette published by Government of India, so please don't distort the facts and give honour to our legendary king Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj, want to suggest every aliens stay away from adding or rebranding the name of our king. Prs1hg (talk) 19:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

@Prs1hg: Wikipedia does not proceed by examining government gazettes; otherwise the name of the holy river of Hinduism would not be Ganges, the name of the Maratha chieftain of the 17th century would not be Shivaji (without honorifics), the name of the city at the confluence of the Ganges and Yamuna would not still be Allahabad. Wikipedia has a well-defined naming policy (see WP:COMMONNAME) that is independent of official names. (For that same reason, Napoli is Naples, Firenze is Florence, Rabindranath Thakur is Rabindranath Tagore.) Please also do not leave posts on my user talk page, insinuating my "alien" status and, by implication, my unsuitability to edit any topic on Indian history. Be aware that I am the major editor of the history section of the featured article India. Attempt further such insinuations, and risk being subject to disciplinary action. Let this be a clear warning. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

The move back to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus[edit]

Per @Sai199610:'s suggestion above, I was about to move the page back to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, but noticed it has already been moved before from "CST" to "CST railway station" (with summary: (Balablitz moved page Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railway station over redirect: per naming convention for railway stations). See here. @Balablitz: Is there such a Wikipedia convention? If so, where is it stated? (In its dictionary meaning, "terminus" could refer to a bus terminus, or a canal terminus (in the old days of still-water canal navigation), but mostly it is used for railway stations. The London stations, which I've mentioned before, which are all terminal stations (i.e. terminuses/terminii), do use "station," and some use "railway station," but they do not use "terminus." (See London Waterloo station, Liverpool Street station, London Bridge station, London Paddington station, Euston railway station, London King's Cross railway station). However, in our case, we are stuck with "Terminus," as it has been used for more than 100 years. Also three older railway stations in India, Howrah Junction railway station, Delhi Junction railway station, and Chennai Central railway station, which I am guessing are terminal railway statiions, do have "railway station" at the end. So, again, is there such a convention, and where is it stated in WP rules and conventions? Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:36, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: Yes I had also gone for an RM to move the above mentioned stations (Terminals) removing the "railway station" suffix.Sai199610 (talk) 12:42, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
I checked Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stations#Article_titling, it seems WP is itself not clear. The American stations prefer the common name to the official name, citing the WP naming policy (which I have cited several times above); see here; however, the UK stations prefer the official names: See here. The Indian project, see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Indian_railways#Structure, does not have anything to say about the page name, but does say that the station code should be mentioned in the lead. (Apologies to @Sai199610:). I noticed two familiar names in the participants list there: @AshLin: and @DBigXray:, so I am including them here too: Question: Does "train station" need to be in the article title in your understanding of WP conventions for Railways in India? Does the article title need to be the official name, and include, "Maharaj," again, in your understanding? In other words, can we change it back to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus? Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:16, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler: If official names are to be there then many pages of Indian Railway stations need to be renamed especially major stations. I even reverted Chennai Central. First I think this should be discussed whether for Indian Railways common or official names are to be present in the title (as said different countries use different ways).Sai199610 (talk) 13:38, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
I think i had read a proposal MOS for all railway station in WP:VP but forget the link. I could only able to locate the link for Chinese railway station. But it is not really WP:USEENGLISH by adding "railway station" or "station" suffix to every railway station even it is grammatical not correct for some of the article title. Yes, there is a consensus to use lower cap instead of "Railway Station", but i don't think it is the place for WP:CONSISTENCY for changing "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus" to "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railway station". Agreed to use "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus" as the bold move by Balablitz, is in fact controversial anyway. Matthew hk (talk) 13:28, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
@Matthew hk: Thank you. Also, I don't know what the official names are for the Howrah and Delhi stations, they probably are the short article names, but the Chennai Central railway station does begin with, "Chennai Central (officially Puratchi Thalaivar Dr. M.G. Ramachandran Central Railway Station[1]), formerly known as Madras Central (station code: MAS), is the main railway terminus in the City of Chennai, Tamil Nadu, India. It is the busiest railway station in South India and one of the most important hubs in the country with the distinction of having the longest name among all stations on the Indian Railways." I.e. as you can see, it does not use the official name in the article title. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:33, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
When inspecting the page history, the original article title was "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus", which the first bold move to add the "railway station" suffix was in 2013. Yes, it is not that consistent if "Victoria Terminus" is more commonly known. But for the merit of RM and consistency (use official name for all station or use common name of all station) it should be discussed for going to "Victoria Terminus", but may be not for reverting to "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus", as it was the article title for the longest time (from 2003 to at least 2013) and the subsequent move are undiscussed bold move. Matthew hk (talk) 13:51, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I did not mean to suggest that for Indian railway stations the page name should be the official name, as there does not seem to be a coherent policy in Railways in India WikiProject. Also, I, personally, don't have much interest in the general topic, and am not even sure how I ended up on this page. However, since I did join the discussion, I will be happy if the issue on this page is resolved first, the general issue postponed until later. For this article, as @Matthew hk: says, the page name was indeed Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus for a very long time. Also, WP policy on official names is stated in: Wikipedia:Official_names#Valid_use_of_official_names, and Wikipedia:Official_names#Name_changes. I don't believe that the official name is as yet the common name. It may become some day, but it is not now. I would be happy if either Matthew hk or @Sai199610: make the move from the current Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railway station to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, and I would support the move. But please don't get us involved in another discussion or survey for this page's name change. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:49, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
That is exactly what I said I had made a request but its not there now. I had also made requests for other terminals also. But first the discussion needs to be closed.Sai199610 (talk) 14:56, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Why is the first move from CST railway station to CSMT railway station not closed yet? I thought you had withdrawn it. I still see the template on the page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:54, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Please see the speedy deletion request template for the page "Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus" (see here) so that this can be moved there. Please add it to your watchlist. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:35, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
I think it need page mover or admin or other uninvolved editor to close it. Since the RM have a long discussion thread, i think it better leave it to the closer to close even the nominator had withdrew. Matthew hk (talk) 16:39, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I have "withdrawn" the RM.Sai199610 (talk) 17:01, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Central station sans Chennai may cause confusion among commuters". The New Indian Express. 9 April 2019. Retrieved 14 June 2019.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

STATION CODE[edit]

Since there is edit warring for the station code, let me tell you that if you visit [2] (the official website of Indian Railways) and enter CSTM or CSMT you get C SHIVAJI MAH T in the source or destination station box. Ping User: Anonymousboii, User:Fowler&fowler. And please never think the other user is always wrong since even you may be wrong. I would recommend to talk before making such changes. Here you will find the station code to be CSMT. Similarly, even here(IRCTC website) you will find the same (i.e., CSMT or CSTM will give you C SHIVAJI MAH T).Sai199610 (talk) 05:49, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

@Sai199610: I am certainly not edit warring over the station code. In my view, it should be mentioned only in the infobox. Including it in the lead sentence unnecessarily clutters up the lead, and makes the initial content difficult to comprehend for a new reader. There is no Wikipedia precedent for station codes to be included in the lead sentences. The oldest and largest railway junction in India, the Howrah Junction railway station, which was opened in 1854, does not have any station code in the lead. Delhi Junction railway station, opened in 1864, also does not have any station code in the lead. Sealdah railway station, opened in 1869, does not have any either. These are all older than Victoria Terminus. The famous terminal stations in London, each a terminus—after which the Indian stations have been modeled: Euston railway station, opened 1837; London Paddington station, opened 1838; London Waterloo station, opened 1848; London King's Cross station, opened 1852—none have station codes in the lead, only in the infobox.
So, accusing other editors of edit warring over the station code, making the crux of the argument to be the station code, and then deducing the name of the station from the station code, has nothing to do with Wikipedia policy. Inputting the station code will only give you the official name. On Wikipedia official names are different from common names.
The disagreement here is about the page name and the lead sentence. As I have repeatedly stated, all the evidence decisively points to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus for the page name. As for the lead sentence, the current lead sentence Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, formally, Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus (station code: CSTM/CSMT (mainline)/ST (suburban)), and before 1996, Victoria Terminus (station code: BBVT/VT), is a historic terminal train station, or terminus, and UNESCO World Heritage Site in Mumbai, Maharashtra, India." is fine. (However, it would be simpler to mention the station code only in the infobox. That is just a suggestion.) Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:36, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
You can visit the sources that I have given. It will clarify your doubt about what the station code for this Terminus is and whether I am deducing the station code. There is no point in comparing to others stations whether the station code is mentioned in the lead sentence or not. Then I can give examples where station codes are present in the lead sentences. Chennai Central, Chennai Egmore railway station, Mumbai Central railway station, Lokmanya Tilak Terminus railway station, Mughalsarai Junction railway station, Dadar railway station, Panvel railway station. And let me make it very clear that I am not the one who introduced the station code in the lead statement. I have just edited the station code that was already present.
And I hope you understand the official websites of the Indian Railways do not provide wrong station codes. Also there are many station codes which are deduced from the name of the station. If you do not know visit many more railway station pages, then you will come to know.
I am accusing only the above mentioned users only of edit warring that is because the station code that I and the other user changed were reverted by these users. Now when I am proving the right one, you can prove me wrong and go for an edit.

And let me tell you even my searches prove that Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus has a clear cut majority being used as a common name.Sai199610 (talk) 09:47, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Again, I have no issues with the station code. The current lead sentence, last edited by you, is fine. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:56, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Hey, @Sai199610: and @Fowler&fowler:, I'm the one that keeps changing it to CSTM, because that is the code! If you go to the website in the little reference number that's beside the station code, and search for "CSTM", you'll indeed see that CSMT is nowhere to be found, but Mumbai CST is CSTM. It's by the Indian Railways, if you don't like that, you might as well write a letter to them, and not mix your personal sentiment here. Also, according to Wikipedia, it doesn't matter what the official name is, it's the common name that matters. For example, even though Prayagraj is the official name for Allahabad, nobody really... calls it that. As for this station, I've commuted several times through it, I've heard "CST", "Shivaji Terminus", "VT", but not once "Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus". But that's not considered WP:RS, so there's that.✘ anonymousвهii 16:26, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Then let me tell you I have heard "CSMT". And the pdf that is provided is of the year 2015. And let me make it very clear once again that the official websites show both "CSMT" as well as "CSTM" as the station code. And hence you cannot argue the same thing again. Again User: Anonymousboii I warn you to stop this edit warring else you will be blocked.Sai199610 (talk) 16:30, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
Again, not WP:RS. Stop using mafia tactics, it's not gonna work here. If you have anything that matches WP:RS, please post it here, or else, you're the one who is edit warring for political reasons. ✘ anonymousвهii 16:36, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
I do know that the source that I have given is a primary source. Then what about you? The pdf that you have provided as a reference is also a primary source.Sai199610 (talk) 16:51, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Let me also make it very sure that I am not using mafia tactics. Its the reality thats gonna work since you have already been warned many times about your edit warring.Sai199610 (talk) 16:54, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Let me explain this in a simpler way: The people who own the place are the ones who set the code. Those people are the "Indian Railways", not you. CSMT is an abbreviation, CSTM is the code. Just like CSIA is an abbreaviation for Chhatrapati Shivaji International Airport, but BOM is it's code. Also, you've fought with multiple editors here, tried to move the page without consensus, which ultimately got opposed, and are arguing with veteran Wikipedians. Also using "LET ME BE CLEAR" is not a good way to reach consensus, it makes you look childish. If you really want to report and try to get me banned, go ahead, because you're the one who will realistically get banned.✘ anonymousвهii 17:04, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
Exactly I do know those people are the "Indian Railways" and not me and that is the reason why I'm asking you to visit the "Indian Railways" official website and also the "IRCTC" website. I hope these won't give wrong information. I am not asking you to believe me. At least believe the above given sources.

I do not want to clarify things to you about making the bold move as I have explained it to the people I have to.Sai199610 (talk) 17:08, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

So you didn't even click the link given as reference in the article, did you? It is from the Indian Railways, and it is specifically the station code index. It is literally a table of station codes. If you can post a LINK of a TABLE of STATION CODES that say "CSMT" instead of CSTM from the Indian Railways here, I will happily change it to CSMT. Till then, my argument holds and you need to disprove me. Also "belief" is not how this website works. Cite your sources properly, vote in moves, weigh in consensus, and there will be no problems. Act like a child, moan when things don't go your way, and the arbitration committee and administrators will handle you.✘ anonymousвهii 17:16, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I went through the reference table you have provided. I repeat its of the year 2015. Can you provide a latest one? The website will prove the new one. Can you tell that the reference you have provided is a new one? If yes then I can ask you "Why is there no change of name of Mughalsarai Junction and its station code which is currently "DDU". I am ready to give up the move request as there are opposes, similarly the way that I gave up the Move request of Chennai Central (To your notice I had also made a request as per the consensus). So, if there are oppositions I don't mind giving up. And also I do not want the things that I want to happen.Sai199610 (talk) 17:30, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Again, I'm the one who added that reference reference table there, and you're just wasting time instead of providing sources to prove yourself. The station code is CSTM. But abbreviations include CST, VT (it's former station codes) and CSMT. The reason Mughalsarai page has that name is because: nobody calls it Deendayal Upadhyay. There are more sources calling it Mughalsarai than Deendayal Upadhyay. The day this changes, so will the page name. The common name is Mughalsarai, but it is officially Deendayal Upadhyay. You are clearly doing this with political intentions. Learn from others instead of fighting them.✘ anonymousвهii 17:47, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
@Anonymousboii: This might prove the above made statement as CSMT being used as a code since all the others are station codes.Sai199610 (talk) 10:13, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Frankly, if the two of you don't stop the bickering about non-issues, I will simply remove the ridiculous station codes from the lead, leaving them only in the infoboxes, and boldly move the page name to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus, which is the name at the UNESCO World Heritage List. Enough is enough. Beyond a certain point, your obsessive editing, which is not the same as saying that you as individuals have obsessions, is disruptive to Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
@Fowler&fowler: I don't have issues if you make a bold move to Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus as the suffix railway station is of no use when the word "Terminus" is already used. Then I would also like you to go for a bold move even for Lokmanya Tilak Terminus, Bandra Terminus, Chhatrapati Shahu Maharaj Terminus as discussed earlier.Sai199610 (talk) 06:15, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Responding to ping by Fowler. I understand I am late to the discussion. But just wanted to note that "Railway station" should not be used in a name that already includes terminus, It seems the consensus here is also on the same page. So we are all good here. if there are other pages that need to be moved it should be moved. I have the Page mover right, in case it is needed, please feel free to ping. regards--DBigXray 12:13, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
@DBigXray: Here are a few that you'd like to "Move" -

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:38, 5 July 2019 (UTC)